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Stephen Pollock, SVP of Development at the Bitcoin Policy Institute (BPI), joins Shawn to explore Bitcoin’s growing role in U.S. policy and statecraft. This discussion covers BPI’s mission to educate policymakers, the challenges of Washington’s political landscape, and the push for Bitcoin as a tool for freedom and national interest, including the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve.

Background

Stephen Pollock, Senior Vice President of Development at the Bitcoin Policy Institute (BPI), a 501(c)(3) nonprofit think tank co-founded by Grant McCarty and David Zell, drives the organization’s operational and advocacy efforts. As BPI’s first hire, he’s been key in building its influence in Washington, DC. With over a decade in political campaigns, public affairs, and FinTech, Pollock has shaped legislation through grassroots strategies and built networks with political and business leaders. A passionate Bitcoiner from Nashville, he bridges Bitcoin’s decentralized ethos with policy, championing self-custody and financial freedom through events like the Bitcoin Policy Summit.


Highlights

• BPI’s Mission: Founded to ensure policymakers take Bitcoin seriously, BPI builds credibility through white papers, 30+ expert fellows, and a new DC office, framing Bitcoin as freedom money, not a threat.
• Washington Challenges: Bitcoin faces an education gap and political football dynamics in DC. BPI counters with research and hires like Ken Egan (ex-CIA) and Axe Shapiro for advocacy.
• Strategic Bitcoin Reserve (SBR): BPI’s advocacy led to an SBR via executive order, needing codification through Senator Lummis’ Bitcoin Act, though stablecoin bills currently compete for attention.
• Statecraft Shift: Bitcoin is seen as a statecraft tool, with the CIA’s Deputy Director speaking at BPI’s summit, signaling a subtle shift in perspective.
• Bitcoin Conference Milestone: The Vice President’s 2025 speech praised Bitcoin as a hedge against inflation and control, with JD Vance as a potential future champion.
• Five-Year Vision: BPI seeks to codify self-custody and regulatory clarity via the Bitcoin Act, build bipartisan support, and elevate Bitcoin to a nonpartisan asset like the internet, reducing risks like a 6102-style seizure.

Quotes to Remember

• “There's no CEO of Bitcoin… that creates vacuums unless someone steps up.”
• “Memorize 12 words, take your life savings anywhere.”
• “The worst thing is Bitcoin reaching government with nobody knowing what it is.”
• “I don’t need an elected official to be a Bitcoiner, just to take it seriously.”
• “Bitcoin is one of the most powerful human rights tools we have.”

Resources & Links

• Bitcoin Policy Summit: June 25, 2025, Washington, DC. Features CIA’s Michael Ellis, Hester Pierce, and lawmakers at btcpolicysummit.org.
• BPI Website: Explore research and advocacy at btcpolicy.org.

Subscribe at podcast.trustrevolution.co.
Music in this episode by More Ghost Than Man.

[00:00:04] Shawn Yeager:

Steven Pollock. How are you, sir?   Good, brother. What's new?   So much. It's good to see you.   I wanted to do this, and thanks for making time because I know you are a busy guy, and BPI is up all night, all day, all night doing all the things.  

[00:00:22] Steven Pollock:

We never sleep, man. We're twenty four seven. No. No. White papers nonstop.   Just  

[00:00:27] Shawn Yeager:

just cranking them out. But, you know, white paper go brr.   But, yeah, I was I was wanting to do this before   Bitcoin conference is a is a, you know, a a misty a misty,   dream of the past.   But before we get into that, for those who may not know, and I mean, as as, you know, I'm getting off the ground with Trust Revolution,   the audience is broader   than our, you know, perhaps typical Bitcoiner. And I'd love to get you, Steven, to sort of lay out the raison d'etre, the the, you know, the why, the what, the how behind Bitcoin Policy Institute. Give us a   a sense of what you guys are about and what you're up to.  



[00:01:08] Steven Pollock:

Yeah.   Well,   first, I wanted to say congrats on launching this,   this new vertical, man. And Thank you so much. Seems to be going well. So thanks for having me on, and excited to see where you go. I wanna talk about I wanna I wanna get you talking here in a little bit. I wanna I wanna hear some things because we haven't caught up in a long time, man. It has been a while. We'll do it we'll do it we'll do it live. F it. We'll do it live. We'll do it live. Hey. So, yeah, Bitcoin Policy Institute. I think we're, like, four years   into this thing right now.  

Grant McCarty, David Zell, co presidents, cofounders.   And, I was not too far after them. I was the first hire there, so I think I've got a pretty good,   pretty good perspective, but, you know, we're still climbing the mountain. But I think we're we're able to start looking back. And,   Matthew Pines is our new executive director, and I'm sure I don't know. For your audience, it may or may not ring some bells depending on who's listening. But if if you haven't, you should look up Matt.   So we launched this five zero one c three, which is a nonprofit charity think tank,   back, you know,   four years ago. They brought me on to to help. And   the reason for this was,   it was kind of a it was kind of a bet, kind of a gamble   that one day,   the US government might start taking Bitcoin seriously.  

And   when they do,   we need them to take it seriously in the right kinds of ways,   versus the wrong kinds of ways. And so,   you know, the by time you realize, hey. We need   a we need a, a, you know, a deep stable of some of the world's, you know,   smartest,   you know, Bitcoin   policy experts or,   just Bitcoin experts in general, mining, energy,   human rights, all the sorts of, pillars of DPI. By the time you realize you need it, it's too late to build it. And so we had to begin   sort of stacking the white paper, stacking the research, building credibility,   getting some of the best and brightest then under our umbrella,   increasing our reach, increasing our,   you know, our influence,   very early on.  

And,   it's,   you know, it's happened   way faster than I think any of us could have imagined. I think there was this idea that it could happen at any point in time. There are certain triggers   that could click that would make this go to sort of this unknown, you know, nobody really knows what Bitcoin is to this is   being discussed at some of the highest levels of government.   But that hasn't really happened   yet.   And so we prepared for that. I mean,   some of the,   I guess, some of the tariff battles,   have maybe,   yellow flagged it in some in some,   some areas, but but it's just sort of organically happened. We had a, you know, we had a presidential candidate go talk about Bitcoin,   the largest Bitcoin government in the world. You know? And, we had ETFs launch, shortly before that. You know? A number of a number of dominoes began to fall, and a number of people began began to pay attention. So,   so that was kind of the the   the point of departure   was, like, we need to build this.  

And   and   it's not just defensive.   It's also, like, we need,   you know, Bitcoin at the time.   I don't even I don't remember if it was even top 10   asset in the world. It may have been, and then it went down to and then FTX melted down.   And so, anyway, it was top let's say top 20 ish, top 25.   This this, you know, asset that's cracked the top 25,   it's, you know, gaining momentum every cycle,   and we have, you know, a lot of it domestically.   Now we know and we can this is something kinda fun interesting to talk about. Now we know roughly 40%   of all Bitcoin is   in The United States, whether it be citizens, companies, or or individuals, companies, or, or the government. We,   you know, we have all a lot of it, and it's growing, and it's sort of, you know, market cap.  

And   in Washington,   more people probably were familiar with Dogecoin than Bitcoin. And so there was a there was an issue, an education issue,   and,   and we needed to kinda flip that. And there's no Bitcoin is so interesting,   but, you know, there's no CEO of Bitcoin to fund a   fund this kind of thing,   or to run it themselves. Right. There's no there's no marketing campaign. Yep.   And   that creates   vacuums that and we see how some of those play out   unless someone says, oh, I guess we could just do that,   and we did. So,   so we   we are we produce research. We advocate.  

We try to be a a trusted adviser to those who are interested in doing,   interesting policy work,   a place where they can, you know, kinda kinda grind it out and and talk through things and learn about second and third order impacts of policy, what's wrong, what's right,   What why does peer to peer rights matter? Why would what what do you mean self custody?   Why is that important? That seems dangerous.   We wanna be a place where   politicians   cannot just get blasted   for asking these questions or daring to challenge those assumptions, but to learn   and to   grow in their understanding.  

And we we take the offensives there. We wanna go to their offices and do all this sort of thing,   government affairs people would do,   but we also wanna back it up with 100 page white papers on US, China. And not just a paper, but written by someone who actually, has the bonafides to back it up.   There's like it, love it, hate it. There are certain,   standards   in   our nation's capital that that are looked for, you know, if you're going to be the type of person who could, you know, testify in front of committee or some something like that. So most of our fellows are our fellows. We have, I think, we're up around 30 fellows now.  

[00:07:33] Shawn Yeager:

I had, you may know I had Yale on a few weeks ago. Great conversation. And so you you guys are just I mean, yeah, I mean, I I'm an avid supporter donor. It's just a fantastic,   group and and team of of folks,   and you have stacked the decks in in that regard for sure.  

[00:07:50] Steven Pollock:

We're fortunate.   Lots of smart people in Bitcoin. Yes. And a lot of these guys are professors. You know? They have other jobs.   We try to give them a per diem, but more than anything, I think especially early on the last few years, it was like,   man,   you're telling me I can do my job, and maybe you guys buy out a course of mine so I can focus solely on the thing I'm I'm most passionate about. And,   you know, I'm not an academic, like, professionally,   but I'm friends with a lot of them, and that's that's a dream come true for a lot of people. Right.   You you're you're allowing me to to continue to work, but then to really, like, use my expertise   in within the thing I care the most about.  

And that that I honestly of anything we're doing, I'm I'm just as proud proud of that, because these are just really incredible people. They're they're wonderfully intelligent. I mean, just   unbelievably,   competent in their in their content area,   the philosophers, you know, all the different all the different groups, and   and we get to unlock them. And, and they when so we couldn't do without them. I mean, they're the they're the foundation of BPI, and then we just kinda, you know, pick it up from there.   It's really cool. And and And thank you for support your support, man. You've been there, like, since day one Pleasure.  



[00:09:09] Shawn Yeager:

And giving good feedback and and helping a lot. I mean, you know, we'll get into this. I I wish in some dream world, Bitcoin could just Bitcoin,   you know, without the, need or,   the, in some cases, interference,   of other parties, but that ain't the world we live in. So I'm I'm grateful for for for BPI.   Well,   you know, I mean, I think you mentioned   there are codes of conduct. There are means. There are methods in which one approaches   DC. And, you know, we'll talk about work at the state level too. But,   if I understand, you've recently   established a presence. So you guys are on the ground as it were in Washington DC now, and that's fairly recent, is it, Steven?  



[00:09:50] Steven Pollock:

Yeah. Over the last   year, really, we've migrated,   to Washington,   beefed up our team significantly,   by probably four x our team size.   And   and when you get to that size, it's you know, we need people who live in we only hire really in DC,   just because we need to be there. Mhmm.   And, you know, I think   not it's not all, like,   you know, I don't wanna play, like,   presidents only here, but it matter. Like, the last administration versus the new administration is a big difference   in in the demand and and interest in in Bitcoin and To put it mildly. What we in what we do. So,   it's a little different. We spent a lot of time in Washington. I I didn't,   but, Grant and David definitely did.  

And,   of course,   you know, some of the like, Matthew,   was already there,   But   all our new hires are there. We have a we have a,   brick and mortar office there, and,   and so it's nice, to see. It's hard for me. I'm the only one who's not there, a lot of times. We're happy to have you in Nashville. So Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Same.   But, but, you know, a lot of the, you know, a lot of the team, we have a government affairs director now or, I I guess I should say,   yeah, director of government affairs. Ken Egan, we've hired on   within the last,   I guess, six months, and he   just completed a illustrious 20 career at the CIA and retired.  

Fantastic fantastic guy, hardcore Bitcoiner.   And,   yeah, I really loved his   really, you know, love his presidency. He's doing a great job just like meeting with elected officials and and can really unpack the strategic value of Bitcoin in The United States.   Head of policies, Zac Shapiro.   You know, you guys are probably familiar with him, but,   has legal background, still runs a law firm,   and can really articulate   as well as anyone I know,   sort of the, you know, the day to day blocking and tackling of what we're fighting up you know, what we're up against and what we're fighting on the peer to peer front,   on the noncassodial   services side of things. And,   it can make the case, as well as, like I said, as well as anyone I know. So the team there,   you know, external affairs,   kinda internal comms.  

So we're assembling, we're assembling a really strong team, and   I think I'm seeing the fruits of that,   especially with we have our event coming up this summer here in, I guess, February.   So I'm starting to see some of that myself, and I'm excited for everybody else to see it as well.  

[00:12:41] Shawn Yeager:

Yeah. And I think, you know, in in keeping with the theme of this whole thing,   speaking for myself, I trust that you guys are   are doing the work that needs to be done. I don't wanna throw shade on some of the other blockchain this and blockchain that. But, I mean, I think what's so important about Bitcoin Policy Institute, and it's right there on the 10,   is that, you know, the focus is where you and I, and I think so many, believe and know that it should be, which is on hard money, freedom money.   With that, Steven, so, you know, what are the biggest challenges that you you guys are facing in getting,   particularly, DC politicians to to truly understand Bitcoin as something distinct,   and   I would assume to let go of what seems to be their innate desire to control.  

What what are the biggest headwinds that you guys face in DC?  

[00:13:36] Steven Pollock:

It's headwinds.   You know,   John, I all sort of the things I think are.   So the interesting thing about about this question,   and I've kinda seen this play out,   you know,   well, ever since I've been involved with with Bitcoin and policy,   it doesn't seem,   on one hand, all that unique to Bitcoin. It's just part of,   the issue with   needing, you know, with, with government and working in Washington, DC.   It's the same Nobody you know, we're not climbing a different,   mountain here. Sure.   It's it's inefficient.   There's a million distractions   in special interests,   and, that's where you get that's where it gets tough for Bitcoiners.  

The special interest, there's no,   you know, there's no   PEO. There's no corporate,   structure that,   you can kind of play the special interest game. I think,   you know,   we don't we don't want this, and I don't think it has to happen,   but it's   sort of happened a little bit, that   Bitcoin's become a a political football like everything else   you know, in the current   environment of our, you know, of our the political environment of our country, everything's a political football.   I'm probably using the wrong brand of pen.   So Cancel. Whatever. It's sort of yeah. So, you know, I'm just I'm not trying to,   but I I I think I think that's   the big part of it. I also think that   the all those things are true, and there's probably some unique elements to this battle we're facing. A lot of Bitcoiners are gonna say, what about, like, the fact that the government doesn't like the idea,   of Bitcoin and   what it does, you know, the sort of freedoms and,   decentralization   that it provides. And I think, yeah, I think that's probably part of it too. I mean, I don't think it's helping anything,   at all that there's probably factions within the government who are   not so thrilled about the idea. Yeah. But their thumb on it. Yeah. Right. Right. And so, you know,   how much of it is that, and how much of it is just, you know, they're not they're not greasing the wheels for us by any means. So there's some of that for sure.  

And then   there's probably there's the unique,   you know, every industry is kinda has its unique blend of trade groups and, you know, we're new. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's the other thing, like, Bitcoin,   crypto, everyone is brand new   with lots of money to throw around, and that's chaos.   This creates a lot of chaos because everything's we're doing everything for the first time.   And we're not you know, people think, oh, this group, you're with that and you're with, you know, this. You guys should all agree on legislation   and who should vote for what. And you're like,   no way. We we actually, you   know,   philosophically are in completely different pages. We have we want completely different things. And so it's hard for I mean, you can imagine,   well, I know actually, I know because when I came in,   with BPI, I was at Bitcoin, or I cared about Bitcoin. I was really interesting I was really interested in it, and I'd been, you know, researching and going to meet ups and all that kind of thing for a long time.  

But I didn't know anything about this, like, the industry.   I didn't know anything about, you know, the different players and all that. You know? I just thought Bitcoin was cool, like like most people. Like, most normal people. Right. And, I mean, four years ago, you know, I mean, it's,  

[00:17:38] Shawn Yeager:

these past four years have been a long decade depending on how you look at it. Right? So, I mean, much has changed since you you got started.  

[00:17:45] Steven Pollock:

Right. I mean, I I I had no idea who anybody was.   Like, all the, you know, the whether it was in Bitcoin, like, the   sort of,   you know,   the cool kids. I didn't know they were I didn't know anybody.   I didn't know. And then on the, you know, so on the political side, I understood that a little more quickly once I got going. Background. Yeah. But, but I didn't know which trade group. I didn't know it. I mean, I I had no idea. So I can I actually can imagine,   if you're just   US senator's office, you've never heard of this stuff? Last time you ran for office, you know,   whatever, four years ago,   this wasn't even a thing, and now it's on everybody's camp you know, everybody's platform,   everybody's campaign. You gotta you just had to say a couple things about it so that everybody knew where you came down. Looking foolish, which they're not given to do. What I'm talking about. Now not everybody. There's some that that, you know, like like Lomas and others that have been there for a long time. But, like, generally speaking,   most people are are like, I don't know what the hell this stuff is. My, you know, my grandkids,   you know, our kids kinda mess with,   like, a couple $100 on Robinhood. Yeah. And suddenly, it's just blasting you in the face, and you're like,   just can somebody figure out which groups are what and what these guys are talking about? Like, I have no idea.  

And so I think that's part of it. I mean, it's a massive education issue. I think   I think that's probably   more than, like, the the deep state slurry of, like, we don't want these   which definitely exists. And more than anything else, it's like   keep   not having even a kindergarten under kindergartner level understanding of what we're talking about   just exacerbates everything else.   How could you possibly know which groups are are reliable and or who who's reliable for this, but not this and this, but not that?   You don't have you have no idea.  

So you can be taken advantage of. You can be lied to. Got some money coming in from XRP. I mean, you know? Yeah.   You know,   you're   I would assume if it were me, I'm probably thinking,   well, this is gonna be gone in a year. Let's get while the getting's good.   And,   you know,   sometimes that's probably the right play. You're like, oh, this is a hot topic.   You know? This'll by next in two years, nobody's gonna heard of this stuff again. Like,   let's,  

[00:20:16] Shawn Yeager:

just sort of be can. You don't know? Well, what's I mean, for those with, you know, name names or don't. I'm I'm guessing,   don't. But, are you seeing, Steven, a pattern for those who get it   at at any level or any sort of sphere within DC? I mean, are there   are there attributes of those who   get it, wanna do the work, do the work, and are are advocating,   you know, or as you say, is it just lost in sort of   the the chaos of of being an elected,   federal politician? Yeah.   What what makes a Cynthia Lummis? You know, let's just sort of pick Cynthia for a moment. And  

[00:20:53] Steven Pollock:

Yeah. I,   you know,   I I don't think it's   Sean, I don't think it's that different   to   to you know? I don't think it's that, like,   if you're out the right way to say. I don't think it's, like, specific to Bitcoin, I guess I'd say. I think   I think   good elected officials,   those who are good at their job   and have,   you know, high quality staff around them. Those you can have both. I mean, you can be the best   US senator ever and   and not have a good staff.   And in fact, you can be like a, you know, not so great. You know? I don't know. And and you you're as good as and I think most would say, like, I'm only as good as my staff. Sure.   Because it's a it's it's a big job.  

I think most, like, executives would say that too. Right. If they were completely honest. Yes.   So I think there's that.   The I think the my favorite type of elected official, personally,   are those that   care about their constituents.   They realize,   what's sort of,   you know, important to them,   what's good for their state, you know, or district,   the businesses that are there.   They wanna see the area thrive. They wanna protect it from, you know, sort of predatory   type of groups.   And so   I think that instinct,   which, honestly, I think a lot like, most people who run for office,   show up to run for office   thinking that way. I don't think it's you know? Or at least believing that they think that way. Mister Smith goes to Washington.  

Yeah. And then things start happening and Yeah.   You forget that or you never really develop that.   So, anyway,   Lomas, for instance, you know, I think,   obviously, she's smart.   You know, I think it's the same type of things that that drive, you know, individuals into being interested in Bitcoin.   You know, usually pretty sharp,   or or not sitting, I guess, like,   mid you know, mid curve. No. Not many midterms.   Yeah. Mid Midwest. So,   yeah. Anyway,   I think, yeah, I think,   I think just being just that that,   I'm so sorry to hear you. You know? You've got kids that are interested in it. Yep. You know? I'm trying to give you a broad answer Yeah. Just because I don't I don't meet directly with a lot of the, the leaders. But,   but I think what I was trying to go with was, like, I   think   I'm look I'm I'm I'm thinking about Tennessee,   and the conversations I've had with elected leaders here   just because they're my, you know, representatives.  

A lot of it is   just   they think it's interesting. They see the value.   They've got family members that are kind of, you know,   passionate about it,   or, you know, they've kinda heard through the grapevine, or they're they're familiar with the sort of human rights HRF type of Right. Use cases, and   I think they,   they may not even. I've met you know? Like, I don't completely get this, but I can tell there's something there.   I can tell this is,   serious and significant.   And and so I don't I that's where I was trying to go. I don't need an elected official to, like, be a Bitcoiner. I really don't. I don't think that's the ask. If so, I think that's a little, like maybe maybe. Like, that's for them to decide.   But and so I don't I'm not like, how much Bitcoin do they hold? Like, how long they've been? What what I want from an elected official regardless of the issue   is for them to hear hear hear me out. And if if, if I'm able to make a compelling case, then they take it seriously because I take it seriously,   and they represent me in government.  

And so I think,   you know, you have the Lummuses of the world, which are   I mean, we're few in the far between. We're spoiled rotten   with her. Mhmm. It's I mean, most industries I said to somebody the other day, they cut off their their left arm   to have a a a senator Lummis in their in their corner in DC. It's just a it's a she's a unicorn. And so,   so, you know, setting that aside,   I think, like, the sort of normal representatives that we're talking about is, let's take this seriously.   You know, there's, you know, the mining side, the energy side, the human rights side.   I talked to a US senator's wife one time, and, you know, like, we were catching talking at this event, and   she was just like, you   know you know, my kids play around with, you know, crypto stuff or whatever. I just don't get it. And I was like, well,   and for whatever reason, it's fresh in my mind. I said   this was, yeah, this was a while back, not too long after The US left Afghanistan.  

And   I said, imagine   being   a woman just like yourself in Afghanistan   and,   you know, The US leaves and you're suddenly overnight, your entire country is just turned upside down and,   you can again,   how Or   I don't care what you think about Afghanistan, but this is what happened. Right. I don't care if you think we should've left or not or should never have been there. We did. But this is what happened. We Yeah. US left,   and everybody was left high and dry. And,   and suddenly, the the banks, the, you know, the entire   economy are just just flipped on their head.  

And you're a, you know, middle class, upper middle class woman with a family, and   you're like, we gotta get the hell out of here. Like, well, what are you gonna do? You can't go cash your you can't get money out of the bank. Are you gonna carry a you know, you get some gold bars, or are you gonna tape them to your legs? Like, you can't get through customs. You can't and so I said, ma'am, I said, for the first time   in world history, someone like you could memorize 12 words, go anywhere in the world, and   take their life savings with them and start over. Yeah.  

I said it doesn't mean it would be easy to do it, but it does mean it's actually possible.   Right. And,   she was just like she kinda stared at me and kinda finished talking and walked off.   Thirty minutes later,   a couple staffers   from,   from the selected officials team came over there. Like,   what did you say to did you say to so and so's wife? I was like, I don't I don't know. I don't I mean, we talked for a while. What are you talking about? They're like, well, I'd order, like, $7 on Bitcoin.   And,   and so that's all I ask. Right? Is if we make a compelling case,   dig in a little bit, verify,   what I'm saying, and, like, you know what? That this is a powerful tool. I don't completely understand it.  

I don't know if it's gonna be here in ten, twenty years yet, but   this is definitely interesting.   And,   and that's I think that's what we that's all we ask. Yeah. I think that's fair enough. With the knife, man Yeah. If we do have with the knife and I think we're starting to reach that point. People like,  

[00:28:16] Shawn Yeager:

damn. I gotta pay a little more attention to this. Right. Yeah. No. I think it's a it's a great it's a great, you know, yeah, strong anecdote and an excellent point to make, which is   there are no easy,   I think, answers   to addressing you know, I'm reminded of my conversation with the IL not to put words in his mouth, but, you know, he rightly, I think,   calls out that the   ideal role   in his case,   in consumer advocacy   is   to advocate for and to promote   laws, regulations   that restrain government.   Not that we need to run around enabling,   or asking, you know, government to do things for, but just not to do things anti.  

Mhmm. And, I think that in combination with, as you say, appealing on a human level, and these are individuals who need an emotional connection as we all do to things that they   wish to invest energy in.   So if we go from there, Steven, to   you know, let's let's dig into the swamp a little bit. So,   you know, there are clashes and conflicts that we see between White House, SEC,   Treasury.   Something bubbled up, I think it was earlier this week from Secret Service regarding mixers.   Here too, broad question.   What is your take or read on   how much of that is just the normal DC noise?  

How much of it is, okay, we're seeing them sort of come on side   to Bitcoin, and and where is there still a lot of work to do? So sort of assess,   if you will,   where   Bitcoin sits relative to these these powers and these these agencies. Yeah. That's a big question. It is a big one. I think one that I think that's  

[00:30:03] Steven Pollock:

that's   timely. I think that's one we're all trying to suss out right now,   in real time.   And, you know, you're   I think you're right to kinda zoom out and look let's not look at, like, one   specific,   story   or one, you know, strategic movement,   and,   you know, use that to interpret the whole. But   on the whole, there does seem to be,   a shift,   you know, in posture.   And,   this the I'm I'm gonna, you know,   make it some assumptions.   But,   you know, I think when you look at,   some of the executive orders and when you look at, you know, just the political,   tides beginning to turn   on some of these,   freedom and privacy issues,   That takes a while to   digest its way through the system,   work its way through the system, and for,   you know, the the signaling to sort of, like,   you know,   make its way. And I think we're starting to probably see some of that.  

Like, a big a big,   an interesting   thing we can talk about,   with the summit   is, DTI. We reannounced I guess   So last week? Yeah. Seems like it's been three weeks since last week.   Yeah. Last week was a long month. Right?   That the deputy director of the CIA, Michael Ellis, will be speaking at the Bitcoin policy summit here in a few weeks. And,   and so that's   raised a lot of eyebrows. Ten four past going up.   Right. Right.   And so,   you know,   on the on the intelligence side, which I'm not gonna speak too much about because I don't   know much about it. But I think when you begin to see   Bitcoin viewed as a tool of statecraft   rather than a hindrance   to statecraft,   then, that's when this this starts to get a little interesting, and you start to see not just the elected officials,   but the agencies and this, you know, some of the support groups, the, you know, DOJ,   treasury,   intelligence community begin to   you know? We don't need a, you know, we don't   need a 180 degree about face. I mean, five degrees is a huge difference   in perspective   on,   on Bitcoin. So   I think we're starting to see some of that, and I hope it continues.  



[00:32:45] Shawn Yeager:

What are what are some of the   in as much as you can share, what are some of those glimmers of hope? What sorts of positive turns or attitude,  

[00:32:54] Steven Pollock:

changes have you have you observed? Well, I know I don't think this is the answer you you're looking for, but I'll this is the one I'm gonna give. I think the biggest, I mean, the biggest, brightest version of this was what happened last week in Vegas. Yeah. And let's let's go there. Give me yeah. I I wanted to touch on that. Give me give me a give me a recap. Give us a recap, please, of, of the Bitcoin conference.   Yeah. Well, let's just go straight let's not bury the the lead.   The vice president of The United States came and spoke at the Bitcoin conference, and he did a hell of a job.   And,   I've have I'm looking on my phone because I've got a few notes that I wanted to that I took during the speech.  

But first, I wanna highlight that and this has been, like, this is, like, my bit right now, everyone I talked to.   You know, the president spoke last year. The vice president the president did not speak last year. A guy running for president spoke last year on a campaign trail on as a campaign stop.   And so, you know, if you're out in Tennessee   or in the, you know, in the area and there's 30 something thousand people and you can go spike Gary Gensler's, you know, football four or five times, and they all get amped up,   and you can make a bunch of promises that if you lose, whatever. But if you win, what the hell? Sure. And, hey, I'm giving the guy credit. Like, he kept a you know, as far as I can see, pretty much every promise he made,   and props for that.  

That's a good start. Regardless of what you'd think of a guy, a president Trump, like, hey. Came in. He said a bunch of things, and he did them.   I appreciate that because you can get   those who don't do any of that,   or just don't make any promises.   Yes.  

[00:34:37] Shawn Yeager:

And so safer path.  

[00:34:39] Steven Pollock:

But, you know, I I'm the point that I'm trying to make is, like I mean, it's pretty basic, but he was not president. He was running for office, and it was a campaign stop. Last week in Las Vegas, it was a sitting vice president,   which is a major difference. He's not running for office at all for years,   and there's no immediate   there's no immediate political gain is the other side of it. It's not like, oh, let me go win over all these Bitcoiners.   They already won. They were won last year. So what's the so why are you there? Well, it's a little more sophisticated than that. Right? It's a little more it's a little maybe there's a little more going on there.   That would be my thought.  

Now the other side of it is,   I looked up yesterday. JD Vance has plus two fifty odds to be the next president of The United States.   Next closest is plus 1,000, and that's a whole   field. That's the,   Gavin Newsom, the AOCs, and Don Juniors of the world are all, like, plus 1,000.   So   against the field, JD Vance is, like, 30% odds of being next fight next president of The United States. So I I think it that's a   because of what happened the year before, I think people are like, oh, yeah. Presidential   caliber people come speak at these Bitcoin conferences all the time. It's it's an it's insane.   Mhmm. It's unheard of.  

And not only did he speak,   he,   first yeah. The first half of the speech, he's kinda get going, and,   I think, you know,   he ended up kinda going off script. And he when he did get off script, I mean, he was   he was killing it.   He talked about Bitcoin.   He said that,   he kinda hit Gensler a few times, you know, rehashed that, got some got   some got some, crowd momentum going.   And he started talking about the why Bitcoin's valuable or why Bitcoin's important.   And he was beginning he discussed, expanded access to banking.   He said Bitcoin   is a hedge against central government control. Woah. Certainly sounds good. Yeah. Sounds pretty good, doesn't it?  

Hedge against inflation, hedge against private sector censorship,   and banking.   He called Bitcoiners digital pioneers.   He said he wants to listen to our industry.   He said that Bitcoin deserves the the industry Bitcoin, Bitcoin network deserves the respect and support from the government   versus being torn down by bureaucracy.   And,   and then he encouraged big voters to be engaged in the twenty twenty six election. So there is Yeah.   Consider the incentives. I mean, you gotta, you know, you gotta remind everybody Yeah. That GOTV,   but   but, hey, I thought, you know, some of that is   I mean, I don't I don't I don't think he was reading from teleprompter during during some most of that. I think that was that was him talking.  

And even if it was teleprompter or whatever, it doesn't, like,   take away from it, but it does add, I think, if you're if you're just riffing and you're dropping. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the guy gets it, at you know, seems seems to get it. Smart guy.   And,   you know,  

[00:37:58] Shawn Yeager:

you also happen to mention a, one of my favorite think tanks in the Washington area too, so I was, excited to hear that. Shout out. Nice. Nice. I mean, I and I think, you know, we could spend a whole lot of time probably on the conference. I sat this one out.   And I think, you know, there understandably,   there's there's the buzz, the,   negative buzz, I suppose, about the   degree to which it has become   a political   event as opposed to an industry conference or a,   you know, a a freedom money conference sort of, you know, drifting away from from the ethos to to industry to now, you know, as you say, statecraft and politics. But   I I think one of the things, and this I know is, is a is a tough one, is the strategic Bitcoin reserve. I mean, I think, correct me, Bitcoin Policy Institute   was was largely, if not   predominantly   behind   the advocacy of the SBR.  

You know, it it   didn't go the way, I think, you know, that a lot of people wanted. It would have been a dreamy scenario if,   in some measures. Not every not everyone will agree   if it was sort of pure and simple, but, you know, digital assets and ETFs   and, you know, all the fingers got into the pie.   Where did this thing begin, Steven, and where are we realistically? I mean and it and I don't mean to use that as the ultimate measure   of success, but I think for many, it is. So, you know, sort of take us through an abbreviated history of   of how it got going and and where we are and maybe where we're headed on this.  



[00:39:39] Steven Pollock:

Sure.   I can give you the the history as far as I know it.   And I'm sure there's   there's parts of the story that I'm that I'm either not familiar with or,   can you hear me okay Yes. By the way? Yeah. Absolutely. That I'm you know,   Others should could chime in. But,   the first thing I'll say about the SBR,   is that I think   I think this was a baptism by fire for,   everyone who is   new to   political realities.   And so it's sort of like, welcome to the big leagues.   You know? Be careful what you ask for.   Yeah. Be careful. And,   and,   you know, personally, I think it was a huge win. I'll just say that. I'll tell you how I feel about it. I think it was a massive win   and,   little shocked.  

That that's   I'm shocked, and I'm not because,   my sort of,   like,   vibe with,   with legislation   and,   and with, you know, this kind of thing is that, like, nothing's ever as great as you think it's gonna be, and nothing's ever as bad as you think it might be.   Sometimes, yeah. I mean, there's a world where you get the cleanest perfect version of the SBR,   and there's a world where you get something   a lot crazier.   And we solved both of those. Right? We solved and I think you saw the the whole, you know, the whole industry just roller coaster. Absolutely.   And   yet again, I'm like, hey. Well, like,   welcome to the big leagues, man.  

That's   this isn't a one off case. Many such cases as they say.   So that's kind of my,   my my opinion,   which  

[00:41:30] Shawn Yeager:

could be wrong and disagree with. Well, anyway, where where where is it? What's the state of things today? Because I'll confess I've sort of lost track of of   where it is on that roller coaster.  

[00:41:41] Steven Pollock:

Yeah. Well, we have a strategic Bitcoin reserve via executive order,   and the goal is with senator Lummis' Bitcoin act to codify it.   Obviously, executive orders   are,   can be overturned pretty easily. And so,   it's a win. I think it's viewed as more of a temporary win that paves the way to do a little more serious, legislative work, like, in a you know, to put it simply.   So   the you know, there are other bills that are out there, market structure bills and stable coin genius act bills that   seem to   have a lot of political capital pushing those.   You can think they're important. You cannot think they're important. You can hate them. You can love them, but that's just the truth is, like, that's a bit major focus right now.  

But at the same time, the Bitcoin act is has a lot of momentum too.   And, it's a little more difficult, it seems like.   I don't know exactly   you know, unpack exactly why,   but I think it's   just as I think it's just as important, probably more important than than any of the others personally.   But, yeah, that's the state of play right now.  

[00:42:57] Shawn Yeager:

Do you buy into and, again, I realize it's probably never this binary, but do you buy   into the observation   that a lot of this is about   Bitcoin bad for US dollar hegemony hegemony? I always try circle with that word.   Stablecoins   good for? I mean, how much of that is  

[00:43:18] Steven Pollock:

at play here? I don't think that's the case.   I that   it's   stablecoin good   for   US dollar,   and that's it. Okay. I don't think it's   and.   I'm thinking I I think,   I think it's actually Bitcoin good,   but stablecoin   Better. Good right now. Right? Right. Right. I'd like stablecoin. Stablecoin good. Yeah.   You know, unless Satoshi, you know, pops up and starts buying US treasuries.   So I think there I think it's I think there's a little bit of that.   And,   hey,   the stablecoin,   I'll say, like, I think it's a little more intuitive   for,   politicians. They're like, oh, I get that.  

It's just a dollar that's digital a dollar. A CBDC   and, like,   we need more of those out there. I get why they're like, oh, yeah. That it's easier,   than, like,   Yeah. Consider cypherpunk,   you know, decentralization.   And and so I don't think What? I don't think it's, like, sinister   or,   you know, I don't and, again, I don't know every elected official in Washington, but those that I do know, I'm thinking   I think they're, yeah, I think they're   I think they just think stablecoins are important. I don't think it has not much to do. And maybe, if anything, like,   oh, this would be good for Bitcoin because it's all you know, everything for digital assets is you know, if it's good for digital assets, it's good for, you know, all digital assets.  



[00:44:57] Shawn Yeager:

Yeah. And, I mean, you know, by we you and, obviously, obviously, you would you and I would take issue with that and pick it to pieces, but I appreciate where someone, as you say, who's just coming up the learning curve,   would think that that's a rising tide.   On the note of CBDC,   and, again, it's tough to ask you to sort of speak on behalf of of this   this massive,   bureaucracy, and I won't. But   any observations   on   creeping   tendency   or or desires   to turn stablecoins   into a CBDC   by by another name? What's your sort of read on the situation there? I have I have no idea. Fair.   Specifically. Like, I don't have, like Not that they would come out and say it to you at a dinner party. Right. Like, you know, we're gonna backdoor this thing into a Chinese style. Yeah.  



[00:45:44] Steven Pollock:

And if they were gonna yeah.   But I think,   you know, my my gut's like, well, of course. So I'm gonna just try to do something like that. Right.   And,   you know, I think you look at the track record of a lot of these elected officials.   You know, they're pro c b d or they're pro stable coins and pretty not pretty anti CBDC.   And so   I like to think that   I mean, CBDCs do not have a good reputation,   among most politicians.   Like, I think we've and we need to continue. I'm not saying all of them, you know, whatever, but, like Yeah. I mean, the Marxists are the Marxists are probably gonna love it. Yeah. But, They're they're pretty well acquainted with the I like, we if we've and I think we need to keep it up, but it's like,   CBDCs a few years ago, like, I don't know what the hell is that. You know? Now everybody knows, like, oh, yeah. Don't touch that with a two foot pole. Right. Right. Good. That's political rat poison. Yes. At the very least, just to I hope they negative one at a leash. I think they think that. Yeah. And so,   you know, I don't now,   you know, the whole, like, okay. I'm working on this,   and they're working on this, and,   oh, whoops. You know?  

That's what we wanna avoid.   I don't I don't think we're close to something like that happening,   but, you know Yeah. You you know, you're gonna have to have some,   you're gonna have to have some people who are way more embedded than I am.   We, you know, we try to keep tabs on all that stuff, but,   primary mission, man, is just,   you know, focusing on Bitcoin and   telling people about it and trying to protect these protect our rights to use it, which I I know is a controversial topic. But,   yeah, I but I love the question. If it is, let's get controversial.   What do you think about some of this stuff? What are you hearing? Ah, man.  



[00:47:41] Shawn Yeager:

You know, I mean, I think it's easy to fall into   a place where more control equals good.   And certainly,   you know, I think for   certain factions,   of the government who   in light of lockdowns, in light   of censorship, broad censorship, in light of a lot of demonstrated behaviors over the last four or five years in particular, it's the slippery slope. You know?   I look to The UK. I look to the entire Commonwealth, and it's just staggering.   Staggering what's going on. You know? I mean, I think I don't have the number at hand, but The UK is   on track to lock up, I think, over a thousand individuals   a month for mean tweets.  

I mean, it is just   bonkers. And so on the one hand, I think,   don't count it out. You know? Are we that special? Perhaps not.   On the other, I think, you know, let's not succumb to the black pill. But I I think, you know, we we look around our borders and elsewhere. We look north to Canada,   and a lot of crazy totalitarian   behaviors. And so Mhmm.   You know,   they're not gonna come advertising it, but,   I I I do worry.   I do worry. Yeah. I think it's healthy.  

[00:49:00] Steven Pollock:

You know, I  

[00:49:02] Shawn Yeager:

think here here too, it's it's a big one, and and,   not sure how much exposure you've had to this. But one of the questions that I put it out to Noster this morning, saying I was gonna be chatting with you, and and one of the questions that came back was,   let's   let's say, and I think it is absolutely demonstrably true that Bitcoin Policy Institute is is winning in as much as we can use that word. I mean, it's a tough battle.   Do more friendly government policies   and, let's say, ETF adoption, does this get us closer to the risk of a sixty one zero two   attack, which for those that don't know, 1933,   president Roosevelt,   you know,   demanded   the   reclamation or, you know, you prohibited the hoarding of gold bullion certificates   requiring citizens to turn their gold over at a fixed price to increase the money supply. So, you know, in short, sixty one zero two attack,   where do you feel we are there? I mean, is is that something you you, as BPI, think about from a policy standpoint?  

Or as you say, is it, look, we're gonna do the best we can to advocate for the good stuff, and   and, we'll hope for the best in the other areas.  

[00:50:15] Steven Pollock:

Yeah.   I think it's a good question. I think it's a great question and something that,   it's a wise question.   I think that  

[00:50:29] Shawn Yeager:

if  

[00:50:30] Steven Pollock:

I it's like kind of a three part answer.   I think that if we,   as Bitcoiners thought, we were you know, Bitcoin was gonna,   continue to grow and scale   and become,   what, you know, many envision it can become,   and   governments   weren't gonna get involved,   or want it. We'll start with companies.   Individuals,   companies, governments   weren't gonna,   you know, want to have some or, you know, wonder about what it could do or not do   for them, then I think you were nuts.   So   I think, you know, let's play it out. I think this is this is sort of an inevitable step. Governments, world powers, at some point, say, we have some Bitcoin.   Should we take it from our people?  

Should we ban it? Should we like it? Asking all of those questions.   And so   I don't think   you can look at I think it I think it's   incorrect to look at   advocates   and,   you know,   whether it's   lobbyists,   advocates,   think tanks, groups like BPI or other groups,   and say,   you're telling you're telling them the bit. You know? You're spilling the beans in Washington DC,   and and you're increasing awareness.   And this thing that was gonna be secret that the government was never gonna figure out,   now you're putting a target on our back. Right? I think that's actually incorrect. That I don't have I I struggle to follow that logic. So this is the the most direct answer I can give.   However, I think   if we were to say, you know, Bitcoin's gonna continue to scale and flourish,   governments, corporations,   you know, whoever are gonna begin are gonna become increasingly interested,   goes from kind of the fly buzzing around the head to, like, you know, something we take a little more seriously.  

And like I said before,   well, what does that mean when they start to take it seriously? Are they going to   fall in love with it and think this is the most, like,   you know, this is the, you know,   this new freedom technology. I can't wait to unleash it for our, you know, United States citizens. Would have loved, and here we are. Yeah.   Man. Finally.   Or   or something that's you know, something sinister   or something in between.   I think the best way   to   hedge against   poor outcomes   is to begin building,   an understanding   first. This isn't   this isn't dangerous to the country.  

This is something that could be good for the country.   Look at everyone who owns it and uses it,   and not just so number go up, but because   it's important to us that   that we have the freedom   to self custody this, that the government doesn't interfere with this Yes. That we can,   we can,   have developers that are working on open source projects,   that we can,   have developers that are building noncustodial   tools.   These   are essential freedoms that we must protect,   at the individual level, but also make that case that this isn't just good for us. This isn't second amendment.   In case, you know, you guys come for us, we got all the guns too, but this is good for the country and helps   guarantee our own,   this, like, decentralization   protects us.  

It's, you know, it's hard we're you know,   you know, like, a thousand straws type bundle of straw type thing. So I think sorry. Bundle of sticks. Right. Right. You you know, from we have we have   emerging existential threats from   other nation states,   from, you know, whatever, AI, from quantum, all these sort of crazy things that are happening.   And   don't you think,   single points of failure are   probably not the direction we want to head? Centralization   is I'm just kind of riffing right now. But, like, we start making these cases,   and   we start having champions.  

The worst thing that can happen, the absolute worst thing that can happen was for this thing to go Bitcoin to reach the highest levels of government and get on their radar, and nobody knows what the hell it is. No one knows who to talk to, to ask important questions.   No one knows which parts are important or what's not or how it all works. Listening to Elizabeth Warren instead of listening to you. Yeah. So to me, that's terrifying   is you have a like, right now let's talk about it right now.   Number five asset in the world. I know it's probably not after after the last twenty four hour twelve hours. We'll be back. We were yeah. We we will be back.   Number five,   on its way to number one,   the most powerful   country, I think, in the history of civilization.  

President's talking about it, vice president's talking about it, everybody's talking about it,   and nobody knows what the hell it is,   and nobody knows who to talk to or trust.   And, so you never know who's gonna walk into that room. We just felt that. We felt a just a little taste of that,   in the aftermath of the election when it was like,   you know, you never knew who was in the white in the Oval Office talking about SBRs and all sorts of other executive orders, and you saw how that played out. Imagine that at scale. And so I think it's actually I think just to recap, it was inevitable that the White House is gonna talk about Bitcoin if you think Bitcoin is what it is.   It's inevitable that the national security   apparatus is gonna be talking about Bitcoin,   that it was gonna be sliding across their desks at some point.  

And I think it's better to have had the conversations,   to have the introductions, to have the education, a baseline   education. And you build   you build that in congress, you build that in the, you know, departments, you find allies that you find people you know, there may be a Sean Yeager in the,   department of justice. You know? There may be people,   there's Bitcoiners that are in, you know,   the national security,   you know,   space   that they care and they get it, and they've been here for a long time. They've been here longer than I have.   And let's find these people, and let's let's give them resources to help them have more influence. I'm like, yo. You need to talk to this guy. Listen to him when he's talking about Bitcoin. No. You're not gonna do that.  

You ban self custody out of your mind. You understand the implications of that for our country? You understand what it's gonna do and how that's gonna help our rivals and hurt our allies?   And so you begin to and, like, oh, yeah. And I think that's that's why   that's why we're here. That's why DPI exists   is to help bridge that gap   and to,   you know, if it's quarterback, if it's coach on the sideline, whatever metaphor you wanna use to help coordinate,   the players in the field.   And, when we see a gap, we'll find a player and get them in. You know? And so,   that's my answer to that.  

And I think it's a great question. I'll dismiss the question. And I just   I think if you haven't been, you know, kinda doing some of this work, it probably is hard to see, like Absolutely. Are we tipping our hand here? Like Right. And and that doesn't mean that   the fight's over.   That doesn't mean that none of those things,   you know, are are gonna happen or that, you know, that,   you know,   I think the other side of it is and you talk about a sixty one zero two.   I think that's personally, I think that's why an SBR is important.   You know? If you don't have any gold   and you're you know, everybody around does, you're kinda like, man, I probably I wonder if they they should give me a little bit of that. Yeah. If you have your own stash,   if you have your own stash, then, you know, maybe you're a little less likely to to,   to go foraging.  



[00:58:43] Shawn Yeager:

So Although, you know, I think in fairness,   it didn't stop them from coming after the gold. But, I mean, I think That's true. And, you know, I think California   I don't know. I've had some some conversations with some people about this   recent,   state level,   proposed legislation in California that if your   crypto sits on an exchange for three years, you know, and is that is that seizure? Is that custody? Is that, you know, whatever?   But I think those are going out. Theft   is what it sounds like to me. Yeah. Which which, you know, they they tend to excel at.   Well, I mean, so so as we as we wrap up, Steve, this has been terrific.  

I've asked a lot of hard questions, so let me ask you one more. In in the spirit of Bitcoin and don't trust verify, because, you know, some would say how much trust I I got this question. How much trust should we place in politicians,   you know, to support, not impede Bitcoin? My answer is zero.   And so if you look out five years, let's say, what is   what are you hopeful hopeful for? What is your best case scenario   in terms   of the right   levers, the right tools being in place   at presumably the federal level so that we don't have to trust, so that we can verify   that,   we as individuals   are safe and sound   in in,   the use of of of our money over Bitcoin.  

What's what's yeah. What's BPI? What do you think what what does great success for BPI look like in five years? Let's put it that way. I think that,  

[01:00:23] Steven Pollock:

I think the more of the stuff that we just get codified   via   congress   and, hey. I get   it. People are like,   we don't have to ask permission   to do these things. You know? We don't have to   we don't need to like, it's like,   we don't need to ask permission   to use self, you know, custodial tools and these sorts of things, and I get that. I I agree.   At the same time, like,   people are being rounded up and thrown in prison   for,   for building these types of services.   And so,   you know, I think there's some legal battles we need to win.   There's some legal precedent we need to set.  

And I think, you know   so that's the justice department side. I think,   executive orders are still helpful.   You know,   even just the signal is helpful   of, like, oh, this is what we're doing,   for other elected officials and agencies.   They do last sometimes.   You know?   And,   they help encourage the legislative process, so I think we need to get, you know, the Bitcoin Act done,   and just codify as much of this as we can. I think we have,   right now, we're in the midst of, like, I hope it's not true, but it could be.   I know some people laugh, but I think we're this is like a very   unique   window of opportunity   where we have   political alignment,   or we have people who care people in office who care,   who at least wanna try to help. And   I think you have to seize that,   because you might not get it again.  

And   if you're the type of person who think   or you got you got some hard battles down the road, right,   over the next five, ten years   as an industry, then   you want to make hay   in the meantime when you can.   Let's just say whatever. Let's say there's a massive political blowback against the industry.   Let's say, you know, at some point,   there's a different political party in charge   with the majority,   and   they're pissed off. You know?   Or just doing what they already like to do.   Like I said,   and I'm not saying one or the other. I'm just saying, you know Yeah. Look at what they're doing and Yeah.   Strike all the EOs and yeah. Right. And so, you know, I think   so right now,   get some of these things done. Get these priorities done.  



[01:03:14] Shawn Yeager:

It's passed, I assume. Lost passed. The DDoS.  

[01:03:17] Steven Pollock:

Bitcoin act, you know, reinforce self custody. Get a cod fight in the law.   Clear up the   sort of   vague regulatory   language that's used to it has has been used to weaponize   against the industry and debank the industry.   When the rules are gray,   you know, it's easier to,   you know, you kinda bend them around and use   them use them for whatever you want against whoever you want. And so when the rules are clear,   it's not just   you know, you always hear, like, we need to know the regulation so we know what to do as a business, which is true.   You know, with the tariffs. Like, you heard, like, the tariffs. It was like, I don't care what the number is. Let's just set it so I can figure out how to run my business based on it. Like, wolf. I read something. It's like, I don't care if it's tariff 60%. I'm gonna run a successful business. But if they're going from 60 to 30 to 80 to 20, that's when you I mean, nobody can adapt,   and and survive. Well, so So it's the same thing with with regulation.  

Like,   I don't care what the regulations are, but I need to know what they are in order to but, you know, the other side is when they're unclear, I can use them to to kind of, make them say whatever I want. So there's that. And then the big one, they're all big, but the other big one   is   bipartisanship.   I think   then that's something we focus on. We're, you know, we're c three in our charter. We're nonpartisan.   We can only work with people who work with us. You know? You can only have the conversation,   someone who will talk to you.   But we have found   allies on both sides of the aisle. We've you know?  

It's no surprise, like, Republicans are,   and have been, like, a little more open to that conversation,   but we've seen a lot of Democrats,   start to engage and get it. And I,   you know, I had a conversation with an elected official this year   who's kinda working on something,   and I'm just bumped into him.   And here's his BPI and different things. He's like, yeah. I've been thinking about I'm gonna be talking about this. I'm being vague on purpose. I'm gonna be talking about   this. And,   and, you know, what do you think? And I said and this this is, this is a democratic party member. I said   I was kind of you know, basically, like, what's the most important thing that I can be talking about when it comes to Bitcoin? And I was like,   wasn't a lot. I said, but one of them,   like, that's important to me is that this does not become a political football that we get kicked back and forth from one part or the other. And when somebody's in charge, we get beat up, and we got   like, that I don't want that.  

And, like, anybody wants that, but that's,   you know, that's the scariest part. Yeah.   And so I think   reaching out, like, the work's not done, man.   Yeah. Okay. One one party cares. Vice presidents and presidents are talking about it. Like,   we we still have another   half of the country,   that   should understand and should appreciate Bitcoin, and I think I think they can. I think there's   there's many I think just because you have to vote for one party or another party doesn't mean you're, like,   not the type of person who under could understand or appreciate Bitcoin, or I think it's important. I actually completely disagree with that premise.   I think I can disagree with people on a lot of different things   and find common ground on,   on these important, like, foundational,   principles, like,   being able to do what you want   with your money,   being able to hold money that, you know,   can't be just   inflated to nothing Yeah.  

That across the world,   Bitcoin has has proven itself to be   one of the most powerful human rights tools that we have,   One of the   few.  

[01:07:30] Shawn Yeager:

Yes.  

[01:07:33] Steven Pollock:

And so I think there are   so, yeah,   to I   kinda went around.   I'm sure you're shocked.   But in five years, I think I mean, in five years, I think we need   champions on both sides of the aisle. I think this needs to become,   I think Bitcoin and,   Bitcoin network.   It'd be great if it became something that's   like, we've we've sort of risen past the   I mean, kinda like the Internet. Yeah. Yeah. Kinda like, oh, okay. Like, nobody's against the Internet.   We need that. Right. The postal the postal service was once very anti, but here we are. Right? I mean, so Right. Yeah. And and I think that's that would be a that would be incredible.   I think it's possible is what I'm trying to say. I think it's possible. There's a lot of work. I think there's a lot of things that can go wrong sideways, but I think that's that's what we're trying to do.  

That's what we're trying to do. And,   I think we've, you know, like I said, we've worked with any everyone who'll work with us, and we always will. And we appreciate those those, you know, people, those elected officials. Like, we we're we're very grateful,   because a lot of things they can spend their time on. And there's a lot of things that are important that they could spend their time on, not just special interest.   And, so, you know,   we appreciate that, but we're also gonna work with we we wanna work with everybody because we think it's that important.   So that's one. Yeah. And I think codifying a lot of this, strike while the iron's hot. Yep. You know? Hope for tomorrow, but, you know, prepare,   you know, for other  

[01:09:11] Shawn Yeager:

Eventualities.  

[01:09:12] Steven Pollock:

Yeah. Scenarios, eventualities,   and, because you never know what's around the corner. So I think if you can   get some wins right now, you got it. Like, you you gotta seize the the moment. And that's why I think this Bitcoin actor is   just super important. Yeah. There's so much in there.   That would be it would be a huge   win. And it would it would you know, is it prevent all the dark scenarios   and things?   Can anything prevent that? I don't know.   But I think every   notch,   every win,   every,   speed bump you can that you wanna put between that,   you know,   I think that, helps a lot. Absolutely.  



[01:09:56] Shawn Yeager:

And it discourages people even thinking about it. It's like It's It's in it's in the foundation. It's in the rebar. It's made law.  

[01:10:02] Steven Pollock:

Yeah. Put the sign outside that says security system   in in your house. Right. You know? Somebody else. Just put the light on.   Go go, yeah, go pick a fight somewhere else, man.  

[01:10:14] Shawn Yeager:

Well, so speaking of picking a fight, here's one. So Oh, let's roll, dude. We were to go on to prediction markets. I kid. It's not really a fight, but prediction markets, and we're doing a prop bet   on rolling back the bank secrecy act.   What are the odds on that one?   What what are your odds? I have no idea. Somewhere between zero and five, but, I'm thinking of our friend, Matt O'Dell, and,   his   very admirable,   you know, I think challenge that that next it's next it's roll back the BSA.   I mean, you know, and I'll I'll ask that half jokingly, but, I mean, do you think that sort of thing   is necessary? Or to your prior comments, can can we get   the Bitcoin act,   you know, passed, and and that gives us at least a strong foundation?  

In other words, how much does,   you know, the the the big the the Bank Secrecy Act allows god knows what to happen in the backgrounds and, you know,   it's   in my view, it is clearly   extrajudicial   surveillance.   Maybe I shouldn't even have gone down this one, but, you know, I guess I guess the question is, does something that seemingly   unlikely   need to happen to really unlock   the freedom to use or the lack of interference to use Bitcoin, or could the Bitcoin act   be   a strong enough start?  

[01:11:40] Steven Pollock:

To be honest with you,   I think you're asking the wrong guy. I'm No. That's alright.   I,   I don't know.   Yeah. To be honest with you, I'm not gonna we that was a tough question. There were lots of tough questions. Yeah. I I just,  

[01:11:56] Shawn Yeager:

you know, I think I think get the I think getting Bitcoin act done will be would be huge. Yeah. I mean, and I asked that, Steve. Yeah. Not to put you too on the spot, but I guess I guess as, you know, as   as a lens into BPI's priorities, I presume if collectively BPI thought thought thought that was crucial or plausible or worth the investment that it would be on the radar, it sounds like, you know, unless it's unless it's simmering underneath that that's not   a place where there's a lot of focus right now.  

[01:12:28] Steven Pollock:

Well,   I think that you should have   Zach Shapiro or or Matt Pines on to talk about that. That's that's all I'm saying. Fair. Fair. You know, I I wanna I'm just   I wanna do it justice and want you know, you need to you need to get one of our policy experts on the right way. A deep rabbit hole. It's a deep rabbit hole. You're you're,   you're going so far out my orbit, man.   Sorry about that. But, it's all good. I I,   I love it. I love the question.   And I'd I'd like to hear what, you know, I'd like to hear what some some others have to say. We'll do it.   Well, let's let's wrap up here. Tell any tales outside of school that I No. No. That I'm too familiar with.  



[01:13:06] Shawn Yeager:

What,   last last note,   what is   what's keeping you bullish? What are you what are you pumped about? What are you excited about? What's what's coming up that's that's got you,   yeah, that's got you hopeful?  

[01:13:21] Steven Pollock:

I will talk my back for for a minute here. Yeah. Please.   I and it's not just about, you know,   BPI and promoting promoting BPI. It's really not about that.   But our summit is gonna be unbelievable.   Bitcoin policy summit, Washington, DC,   June 25,   and   so I mean, soon. Yeah.   And like I mentioned,   deputy director CIA,   Michael Ellis, is gonna be there.   Beau Hines, you know, all the all the I think we have, like, nine congressmen,   three or four senators   speaking,   and Hester   Pierce. So   from the, you know, political side,   massive.  

And   this is our third summit. And so I have the   privilege of seeing this from,   hey. Should we do a policy summit? Like, what would that even be? Like, who would come to that?   Bitcoiners don't know anything about policy, and policy makers don't know anything about Bitcoin. Is this a good idea? It was like, well, that means it's a great idea. It's a it's a chance   to bridge that gap, and that was kind of the goal.   FTX had just   just melted,   nuclear meltdown,   And everyone   was suddenly a little familiar with Bitcoin, and they thought it was a massive fraud. Mhmm. It was their first   their first introduction.  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   And it's like showing up the first day of school, and you forgot to wear your pants. You know?   It's like, great.   First impressions.   So we were like   we decided to lean into it, a few years ago.   FTX melted down,   and   millions of people lost lots of money.   Come to the summit and learn about Bitcoin.   There's more to the story.   That was kind of the thing. Like, let's just lean into it. Like, hey. This horrible thing happened,   and we're not gonna we're not gonna hide it.   But we think that,   if you learn about Bitcoin, I think you'll be surprised.   And we brought in some of our fellows.  

We brought in everybody who would who would come, and we had a few 100 people show up, high quality. It was it was awesome. It was unbelievable day.   And that that made me really bullish on BPI.   That was, like, my first year here.   And to see   early on, like, oh, there's   there's real appetite   in Washington to, like, kinda start to get your head around this. And there's real people, real big owners in Washington that were just like, finally. Yes.   You know? People talking about mining and energy and security and human rights. Like, this is awesome.   And so   last year, we ran it back,   and it was like, should America embrace Bitcoin?  

And,   America did, my friend.   Uh-huh. America did.   And so this year, it's   okay. America's embraced Bitcoin.   Now what now what happens? What happens next?   And so we're going to more of a master's level. I I think some of the questions you mentioned today,   you know, my job, I see, isn't, necessarily to answer those questions and have great answers, but to find the people who have the best answers   and get them in front of the people who are asking them. And so, apologize to your audience if they were hoping for a little more there,   but but I see myself as someone who goes out and helps find,   find the, you know,   find the guy and get them on stage with the US senator and have that conversation. And strategy does not say policy in it. So I Yeah. Yeah. Apologies are for me.  

Yeah. But, but listen. I think this year is going to be,   it's gonna be it's gonna be awesome, man. We're we're doing   it's gonna be eight to five. Boom. Boom. Boom. Doing a series of five minute,   like, lightning keynotes,   and it's gonna be high energy.   I don't know how we're you know, we've got so many incredible speakers. We're just, like, we're stacking them up.   And and we're doing,   we're doing a day on the hill on day two, which we've never done. And we're so we're gonna flood the hill with Bitcoiners, talking to elected officials,   and, kinda, like, just high signal. All a lot of other groups do days on the hill,   and a kind of a thing you do as a trade association and trade group, but, you know, I think Bitcoiners are built different.  

And, I'm really excited to see the impact of that day.   Day some days on the hill are kind of a honor,   depending on who you put. I might imagine. You're only as good as your your members there. And so we're baby.   Man, I I am really I'm actually really excited about that.   I think at first, I was like, ah, I've I've, you know, I've been in so many days of the hill, and but this is gonna be different. And, so that's gonna be awesome. We got some round tables we're excited about.   And, man, we're also at a a a doubling our size and venue, doubling the size of the audience. We just did an event in March. I don't know if I told you this. We did this I mean, I know I told you I did the event, Bitcoin for America, and it was, like, hyper focused on strategic Bitcoin reserve. It was a half day event.   We   had over a thousand people wanna come to that. And we didn't even know we only had 200 seats, so we had to turn everybody away, ton of people away, which was really sad. We just thought, hey. It's only we turned we spun it up in three weeks. We're like, we're just we didn't do sponsors. We didn't do we just said we're just gonna do this event   because it needs to happen,   to help educate everyone and get everybody on the same page of what we want   out of a strategic Bitcoin reserve and why we think it's important. And, man,   it it really blew up. So we already had the summit planned for June. So tell everybody, hey. Come to the summit. It's a full day. It's gonna be a lot more fun. You get all the after parties and all that kind of thing. So if anybody wants to wants to, wants to join, it's not too late. We do have some seats available,   and you can go to btcpolicysummit.org,   btcpolicysummit.org,   or you can just go to our website,   btcpolicy.org,   and there's a link over there to to go to the summit web page and,   and get on the line to invite and Absolutely. Love to have you.  

I will endeavor to talk about that, man. Like, it's gonna be sick. Yeah. That's awesome. That is awesome.  

[01:20:02] Shawn Yeager:

Well, thank you, Steven. Thank you for today. Thank you for the work you do, and thank you to BPI.   You're out there doing,   good, important, difficult work, and I am grateful as I know many, many, many people are. So I look forward grateful for you guys. I'm grateful for the community.  

[01:20:17] Steven Pollock:

We we've   existed solely as a as a charity of of, support, and the community's been very supportive.   I love the, I'll say this. Like,   sometimes we get feedback, and, Bet you do. Everybody agrees with everything we do. I love that too. Yeah. That's my favorite thing about about Bitcoin and this industry is that,   we don't agree on everything. I think that's awesome. I think it's a that's a feature, not a bug, and I'm really proud of that. And I'm proud that we still get things accomplished in spite of that. And so, you know, some people, you know, whatever, have a different opinions about   lots of different things.  

So keep it coming.   I love reading the feedback and even when it tested me off, And I think it's wrong.   I think it's great. I think that's the one of the that's one of my favorite things about being a mistake.  

[01:21:07] Shawn Yeager:

Awesome. Thanks again so much, David. Have a great weekend, and all the best for the summit. Talk to you soon. Thank you, Sean, man. Good to see you. You too. Talk to you soon.