Trust Revolution

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In this episode, Shawn sits down with a legendary figure from the early days of digital culture, R.U. Sirius, exploring the radical roots and transformative potential of the Internet. Our guest shares insights from his experience with pioneering publications like Mondo 2000, reflecting on the early ideals of user empowerment and decentralization. We delve into the evolution of the Internet from a space of individual freedom to one dominated by corporate interests, discussing the shifts in power dynamics and the impact of commercialization on the digital landscape. With a mix of optimism and caution, this episode offers a thought-provoking look at the past, present, and future of digital culture and individual agency.

About RU Sirius

RU Sirius is a writer, musician, and counterculture pioneer who co-founded Mondo 2000, the 1980s–1990s magazine that shaped cyberpunk and tech optimism. A “left-libertarian” influenced by transhumanists Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson, he’s explored technology’s liberating potential for decades. Based in San Francisco, RU writes for Mindplex.ai on AI and creativity, performs as The Smarter Kings of Delirium, and is co-authoring a Mondo 2000 history with Shira Chess for Strange Attractor Press.

Quotes to Remember

• “The original ideal was that everything on the internet can be easily copied and shared… it won’t be controlled and it won’t be monetized.” — RU Sirius
• “Competition was going to put more power into the hands of the hosts, the sites, and less into the hands of the participants.” — RU Sirius
• “If Mondo 2000 had one message, it was be like Laurie Anderson… use the tools as creatively as is possible.” — RU Sirius
• “Leaning into friendship can be a good thing to start doing [in a trolling world].” — RU Sirius

Resources & Links

• Mondo 2000 Archives: Explore cyberculture’s roots with digital scans at archive.org. https://archive.org/details/mondo2000magazine
• Mindplex.ai Articles: Read RU’s takes on AI and creativity at Mindplex.ai. https://magazine.mindplex.ai/search/R.U.%20Sirius
• Strange Attractor Press: Learn about RU’s forthcoming Mondo 2000 book. https://www.mondo2000.com/freaks-in-the-machine-mondo-2000-in-late-20th-century-tech-culture/
• RU Sirius on X: Follow RU for updates on his work and events. https://x.com/2000_mondo

Subscribe: https://podcast.trustrevolution.co

Music in this episode by More Ghost Than Man: https://moreghostthanman.bandcamp.com/ 

[00:00:04] Shawn Yeager:

Are you serious? Hello. Hello. Thanks, and, welcome.  

[00:00:08] Unknown:

Thank you. Good to be here.  

[00:00:10] Shawn Yeager:

It is a delight.   As I sometimes do, I'll try not to fanboy too hard, but as I told you,   I grew up,   on a lot of your publications.   And,   I guess in in some form or fashion, you know, you could say I was radicalized.   Alright. By Mondo February, which is an incredibly cool publication.   Oh, I hope that doesn't get me into trouble. We're radicalized. No. No. No. I'm still here. I'm not I'm not I haven't gotten that that bad. But,   but I say that tongue in cheek, but only to say, you know, I I   I got   gosh. I got started on a VIC 20 and a 300 baud modem and Fido Net, you know, for those who are listening and watching it. It dates me. Good times. But it was an amazing time. And so it is a genuine pleasure to speak with you,   about your experience, what you   saw, what you see, what you foresee,   and that's really what I'd love to get into today.  

Those who are not familiar didn't have the good fortune to be around,   during the publication of some of those early   would you call them zines, I guess? Or were they?  

[00:01:15] Unknown:

Maybe the   one was a zine, two were a zine, then Manta 2,000 sort of became an official  

[00:01:22] Shawn Yeager:

magazine, I guess. Time. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I'd I wish I'd kept mine. You know, they were glossy, and it was it was amazing to hold, which, there aren't that many of anymore. But, Yeah. I mean, I have I have to scare them up when people ask me to look at them. Yeah. You know? But I do have them all,  

[00:01:40] Unknown:

one place or another.  

[00:01:43] Shawn Yeager:

Yeah. It's it's it's something that absolutely, needs to be preserved. And for those who aren't familiar, we'll have notes.   We'll have links in the show notes so they can get a sense of some of these publications. But   where I'd like to start are you is, you know, in in Mondo February heyday   and and certainly I I would imagine before you saw the Internet as a tool for individual freedom,   for systems that perhaps the term was not decentralized back then, but but, you know, broke up and took back some of the power. So my question is, as a bit of a retrospective,   what core beliefs about user empowerment, you know, sort of drove that vision   or individualism   drove that vision? And and which do you see still hold up today?  



[00:02:27] Unknown:

Okay.   I mean,   there was the, famous John Gilmore   quote,   that the Internet   views censorship as damage and roots around it. Absolutely.   So it was viewed as an utterly   out of control   space in which,   it would be difficult   to, set up roadblocks,   I mean, including   roadblocks   related to commerce.   So so the I mean, the original idea   was that   everything   on the Internet can be easily copied and can be shared with anybody else   on the Internet.   Therefore,   it   won't be controlled and it won't be monetized.   And and the original culture of the Internet,   this basically disallowed   commerce, you know, other than small scale kind of Craigslist   sort of,   sort of things.  

You know, you go on your, BBS,   go on the well or whatever and offer something for sale, but, you don't   you don't, market Coca Cola on there or,   you know,   books,   you know,   gathered up by Amazon and that sort of thing.   And this was mid eighties, late eighties. Right? Yeah. Late eighties. Into the into the early nineties. I mean, up until the web, really.   I mean, the the web is what   made the commercialization,   plausible.   You know, it is a gathering of images   and context   and   websites that, would draw people   to them and so So that original ideal   and and the idea   was you know, he asked about,   individual empowerment   and,   decentralization.  

And the idea was that every individual   would be a   media a media deity, a broadcasting   system once it, you know, got into,   being able to share,   video. And   everybody would have a website and have text and make that available. And,   for the most part, people didn't   dream too much about what Jaron Lanier has   labeled siren servers,   that there would be,   these   attractive,   well built,   apps like Facebook that would suck everybody in,   to   a space,   controlled   by, the masters of that space and and by the needs for,   investment capital and and that kind of thing.   So   I I don't think it up to a point, you know, maybe some people predicted that   this would be what would eventually occur, certainly that commerce   would occur. But the form that it took, I don't think there were a lot of people   imagining that. And,   initially, I mean, there was this kind of idealistic   social media   idea. I mean, that, Wired,   started something called Electric Minds,   that was run by that was run by Howard Rheingold and,   Justin Hall and and, you know,   cyber techno idealist.  

And I'm sure they imagined that they would sell ads,   to keep it going, but, that,   I don't think they imagined anything on on the scale   of   what occurred with,   Facebook and Twitter and   all those behemoths that   emerged   eventually,   out of all that. So, you know, that that was the early idea. And what, I mean, for you personally, what sparked your  

[00:06:41] Shawn Yeager:

decades long pursuit   of drawing my hearts and minds, you know, to to what the Internet   made possible,   or online, I guess, as it were, pre Internet?  

[00:06:52] Unknown:

Yeah.   In the seventies,   I,   was,   converted,   sort of to   a   transhumanist   kind of vision by Robert Anton Wilson and Timothy Leary,   two,   two psychedelic   pranksters.   Tim was mostly known during the nineteen sixties, but,   became a   techno   enthusiast in the nineteen seventies and actually   spoke to a, libertarian convention in, like, 1979   and told them, you know, the Internet was going to,   make your dreams come true about, having,   you know, complete   liberty,   in terms of communication,   possibly commerce,   and that sort of thing.   So, those two,   jokers,   kinda kind of got me going.  

But   in some ways, my openness   to   techno   optimism   really goes all the way back to,   being a high school student in the late nineteen sixties.   And there was,   I mean, there were two streams   in counterculture in the nineteen sixties. One of it was   get the hell out of here, back to the woods,   get rid of your TVs,   Don't get involved with computers. You know, IBM is is the enemy.   And then there was this other aspect,   that,   the machines of loving grace,   poem by the hippie poet,   Richard Bratigan,   that,   the   cybernetics   would deliver   a kind of utopia,   the kind of utopia   longed for by hippies who didn't wanna get jobs. You know?  

So that so that we could, root around,   the whole   drag,   you know, the tiresome   drag of adulthood   and, you know, move into a   a groovy   a groovy world. So, you know, I carried those   hopes with me, you know, all the way into   the nineteen nineties with Mondo February,   you know, with   an increasing   sort of post punk   streak of doubt and nihilism kind of mixed in there,   you know,   the feeling of, being assaulted by,   the Reagan   era,   and, the,   war on drugs particularly,   which I will point out probably damaged,   more lives than anything we've seen so far,   from the new administration,   although they've got plenty of time to work on it. But,   yeah.  

So, yeah, I mean, this is a   tremendous   mix of emotions and thoughts that have followed me   all the way through  

[00:10:07] Shawn Yeager:

the decade of the What if that thank you for that, are you?   I'll come back to this, but but Yeah. At this moment, you know, as we kinda come off of that part of the conversation,   what if that spark remains? I mean, what is your read? What is your take on   what remains of that original,   animating vision?  

[00:10:34] Unknown:

I'm I'm fairly,   dystopian dystopian   at this particular moment.   But, you know, I always keep my net out for,   something   different   occurring.   I have enthusiasm   for   the enthusiasm   about AI.   You know, I am not really that enthusiastic   about it.   I'm not, you know, I am not   convinced that large language models, you know, are   bringing us to a singularity   or,   some place where   cybernetics,   will deliver the so called machines of love and grace.   You know, I'm also increasingly skeptical   about,   whether   even if we could deliver good and plenty for all,   the,   human   kindness   does not exist to want that to happen,   that,   there are enough people who   want bad things to happen to a lot of people,   to drive   anything utopian   into a ditch.  

Maybe.   But, I mean, that's that's   where I go in terms of hope.   Really just kind of the the the wilder   possibilities   are are the things that,   give me even a a smidgen   of hope. I'm doing a thing right now. I'm doing a   performance, and I have an album.   And I call the performance,   come to the Gulf Of Deliria.   And, you know, as   my impulse,   as we shifted   into,   the new situation   with, Trump and so   my impulse was to   be kind of a grounded person who,   will be a nanny and lecture people about truth and justice and,   the difference between   fact   and fantasy and all that. And at some point, I just tell you, fuck it. I'm gonna ride the delirium.  

And and that's kind of where where where I am with that right now.  

[00:13:13] Shawn Yeager:

Look for the bright spots and and and ride them. I love it.   Yeah. So you you mentioned and you have called out certainly,   not just today, but but, generally, companies like Google and Facebook for consolidating the Internet.   When would you say   not to put words in your mouth, but, you know, assuming you saw a change at some point, what early signs of that shift   did you notice? And,   you know, perhaps for those who aren't deep in the technology, they're end users, so to speak. They're, you know, individuals going about their daily lives and using these   tools. How has it changed the balance of power between users and   platforms?  



[00:13:53] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there was,   the   the stock   market, the the big rush of the late nineteen nineties.   You know, and you could see that all these,   companies that were   coming online were getting   big   investment capital. They were they were getting,   I can't remember the word for it, but they, you know, they were,   going public. That's that's a problem I was looking at. At. Right. And so, they were taking on a responsibility   to make big money.   So you could see   that   right around that time, the late nineties, that the thing was   going   to   shift,   towards   competition.  

The terms at that time was capturing eyeballs.   That was that was the idea.   So you could see that competition was going to,   put more power into the hands   of the,   host, the sites,   and less into the hands of the participants and and   and, so the the people   using the site. And and and, more people would be   there'll be a tremendous pressure   on these organisms. You know, I think Yahoo was one of the early ones to,   capture people   and keep them engaged and keep them on your site and start giving them stuff that would keep them there.   Start punishing people for linking out or or making it more difficult for people to link out and to just move, you know, freely   around,   you know, finding ways to discourage that. So you could start to see that   in the, late nineties.  

And, I mean, there's been complexity   all along. I mean, during the   so called Arab Spring, even Facebook could still seem heroic,   you   know, as a way for, people   in,   some of those countries to,   spread the word about the rebellions, the that they were have having and so   So there but but, I mean, there was a lot of complexity there.   And then, I mean,   basically,   you know, a lot of discoveries   of kind of sleaze   going on in Facebook. Yeah. I'm a little bit,   wobbly on the details at the of this point, you know, that bringing in   companies to,   analyze data and to push people in   various,   directions,   you know,   Russian server farms and all that kind of stuff. I mean, that was that was real. So, I mean, that,   you know, it there was a decay,   I think. I I think,   Corey Doctorow, when he came up with the term enshidification,   I think decay was one of the words that he used. There was a kind of decay,   and I think   that started becoming more extreme, like,   probably in   during this century, during this,   millennium.  



[00:17:22] Shawn Yeager:

Yeah. DRM and and the like. And, certainly, you know, Corey, as you note, has got some great insights there.   And and, you know, we fast forward to today, and it's obviously a big topic of conversation that,   as you noted, what was   incremental is now in effect   total surveillance,   of these platforms,   be it government driven or company driven or a combination of both.   AI compounds a lot of that.   What's your what's your read, if you if you have one, are you on   what should could be done   technologically,   culturally,   or otherwise   to restore user control   and get us back in line with the Internet's original ethos? Are there steps we can take? Not to say there's a silver bullet, but   any thoughts on where we should be headed?  



[00:18:14] Unknown:

I mean, I've heard of people   making projects, you know, to create,   new social media platforms that they hope will attract people,   that will, you know, within their architecture will,   protect people,   better.   You know? I mean, the the Firefox people seem to want to do that, but then again, they dialed that back a little bit recently. Absolutely. I can't remember the details. They did something that was kinda not consistent with,   their their claims.   You know, I mean, Kevin Kelly, you know, who is the original editor of Wired,   was always saying privacy,   forget about it.  

You know? Forget about privacy. And, you know, that may be   a direction   for relative   liberation as just to forget about   privacy   and then work   with that and work around it,   and still   struggle to have your own voice   and maybe to create   spaces   outside of these,   controlled siren servers.   You know,   and it it becomes widespread enough that people   want to do that.   I mean, the thing about surveillance is nobody's even   pretty much nobody's objecting to it now. You know? I mean, that's pretty much the   the vibe around   surveillance. I mean, if you remember,   I can't remember the guy's name, the guy who went to Russia who revealed the, NSA.  

Oh, Snowden. Snowden. Right. If you remember that, and it was like, oh my god. You know? Isn't this terrible?   The NSA is is spying on us and all that. And, you know, now,   the guy who was,   advocating for the spying is, you know, like a hero on MSNBC   because he's opposed to, you know, the extreme right and all that. And so a lot of people have just said, you know, forget   forget   surveillance.   You know? People people who are making surveillance   apps are bragging about it   everywhere and anywhere without anybody objecting to it. I mean, a lot of them are are created and sold by Israel.   So, I mean, that attracts   activists to,   say, look at these bastards who are making surveillance technology.  

But in general, it's just, you know,   nobody is really   trying to   nobody's bothering with it. It's it's like the   the the song is over. It's, you know,   Everybody's gonna be seen   by everybody.  

[00:20:58] Shawn Yeager:

Well and and I wonder and, I mean, I  

[00:21:00] Unknown:

I I mean, the problem is not everybody, though. It's they're seen by companies and   they're powerful,   and they're not necessarily   seen by everybody unless,   there are people who have a lot of will to,   to wanna look at what everybody's doing, in which case I some people can do that. Some hacker types can do that. I think of the term,  

[00:21:23] Shawn Yeager:

surveillance, which is to Yeah. To surveil the surveillers.   Yeah.  

[00:21:28] Unknown:

And not enough of that, for sure. I mean, that was one of the principles of cyberpunk   and, Wiki   WikiLeaks   and all   that, was privacy   for   the the weak   and the individual   and,   no privacy for the powerful and,   you know,   yeah, the wealthy, powerful, etcetera.  

[00:21:54] Shawn Yeager:

Where where if at all, I mean, you've operated under a a NIM, a pseudonym for all these years.   Someone looks hard enough, they're gonna find your name. Oh, yeah.   But talk to me a bit, are you, about   what that choice was like when you started   and did it have anything to do with   they're going to find me, they're going to know me, they're going to discover things about me, so I'll just operate   under a pseudonym, or was it something entirely different?  

[00:22:24] Unknown:

It was just playful, really.   You know, and I've I mean, I've always loved   Wavy Gravy and Jill Biafra   and Alice Cooper and people with   get their you know,   get fun names for themselves. And,   you know, I've been reading Robert Anton Wilson about the   he wrote about the serious mystery that, people from the   Dogon,   Dogon   tribe had   mapped out the Sirius star system without any telescopes   and all all that.   So I use the name r period u period s I r I u s.   I like to call it as an open invitation to alien contact.   But, mainly, it was I mean, it was a a quippy a quippy name. You know, I'd gone from being a yippee to being a quippy.   And, you know,   you know,   a a challenge to, people who wanna take anything too seriously.  



[00:23:27] Shawn Yeager:

So, you know, so Verner Vinge, True Names. It wasn't,   it was more more of a good time, which is great. Yeah. Well, you know, on that land or rather down that sort of path,   your work blends what I believe you you call, correct me, are you anarchic optimism?   Did that I think I think that got in the mix there somewhere.  

[00:23:46] Unknown:

I I might have used that frame phrase at some point.   I I think I think I'd I'd   think of Terence McKenna maybe using that.   Okay. Maybe I misattributed.  

[00:23:57] Shawn Yeager:

But I think a general sort of distrust of authority. You had some you had you you took at least one run-in the Libertarian Party for office. Is that Yeah. No. Yeah. I made my own thing. I called it the Revolution Party. I called it a mix of  

[00:24:11] Unknown:

liberalism   and libertarianism,   although it was really more a mix of leftism and libertarianism. I was just going along with the the general usage at that time that people were Classical liberal press.   Yeah. But,   also, friendly friendly welfare,   you know,   anti corporate,   but also,   maximum individual freedom. And how do we somehow   make those things happen   together, which is complex. You know? And   on Facebook, I think I still   describe   my   self as   a left   slash   libertarian   and then in parenthesis,   impossible.  

[00:25:00] Shawn Yeager:

Well and in fact, that that that is really that goes to sort of the heart of my question is, obviously,   we all evolve over time, our views,   our beliefs perhaps,   that we hold most dear may hold true, but will evolve and change.   What is it the core of your take, your perspective   on   what technology can do to empower individuals? You know, what's what's sort of the,   the core of of those beliefs that you hold, if you could unpack that a bit for us? I think that  

[00:25:34] Unknown:

there is an intrinsic   value,   for human beings   in being connected   not only with friends and family like you can do over Facebook, but being connected to the overall,   zeitgeist, the everything   everywhere all at once situation.   There's some intrinsic   value   in there.   There's some way   even though,   the power   of surveillance,   falls largely into the hands of the rich and powerful,   there's something   intrinsically   potentially valuable   in having a big view   of,   the human species and what's going on with human minds   out there   even when it's disturbing   and and disgusting.  

You know? I mean, you know, in the early days of techno culture, cyber culture, manda February,   psychedelic,   optimism and idealism,   You know,   John Perry Barlow,   you know,   talking about the global mind,   that we would get together in a global mind and that, you know, this would be a happy space for people   sharing minds. And,   you know, what we discovered that to,   to turn,   to John Paul Sartre,   hell is other people's tweets. You know, we discovered that   other people's minds are are not   something we, necessarily   want to be engaged in. There's a lot of trolling. There's a lot of,   the grotesque.  

There's a lot of, four chance   style,   overgrown adolescent fucking around just for the just for the hell of it. I mean, early on, I was like,   I think I might have,   nominated 4chan for a Webby because I thought it was just wild and amazing,   that, this irreverent   crazy thing was going on online. And, I mean, one of the things that came out of,   four Chan, people forget, was anonymous.   Anonymous,   you know, kind of   took down,   what's the Tom Cruise   organization  

[00:28:05] Shawn Yeager:

again? Oh, Scientology.  

[00:28:07] Unknown:

They kinda took down Scientology   several notches.   You know? And the Scientology never quite,   so people forget because,   the,   alright, also   ended up coming out of, four Chan,   but people forget that. So, I mean,   I'm drifting a little bit from where I was originally  

[00:28:30] Shawn Yeager:

going. But, No. But I think, you know, to the point of anarchic optimism,   classic liberalism mixed with libertarianism,   that freedom, that unhindered freedom.  

[00:28:39] Unknown:

Yeah. And I'm I'm not sure where it's all going. I know, like, you do Bitcoin stuff, and,   it's been one of the   ideals within counterculture   that there should be   alternate or alternative currency,   you know, currency that was, you know,   actually structurally   different   from the,   controlled,   you know,   main   mainline   currency. Hippies and,   kind of,   green   lefty types in Ithaca did Ithaca bucks or Ithaca dollars or whatever. And I know there have been all these experiments with alternative currency.   So when the,   Cypherpunks   came along   and, they started talking about the possibilities of cryptocurrency,   I was very   interested in the idea of a   uncontrolled   area   of   exchange,   even though the impulse   was more towards the anarcho   capitalist   vibe, which   is not my thing.  

I mean, my   coauthor   on many of   my books and senior editor at two thousand Saint Jude   Milhau,   who was part of the Cypherpunks.   She was kind of a more of a left libertarian,   and she was excited and engaged with   the the Cypherpunks   and and the   potential for cryptocurrency.   So, I mean, I follow these things with   great great interest grave interest great interest, a mix of,   you know, fear and loathing and excitement.   And,   I mean, it's one of those, roll of the dice things that we don't know   where it's it's going to land   land ultimately.  

So I'm very,   very intrigued.   I participate only very lightly   in it, but I'm, very intrigued   by by the whole thing. And I and I if I'm gonna promote my song,   I'm against NFTs,   which   Fantastic. It's actually there. So I'm against I'm against NFTs. It doesn't matter much to me, so it's ambiguous.   But it ends with,   get your money worth nothing and your clicks for free. So Oh.  

[00:31:14] Shawn Yeager:

Love that reference. We'll see where it ends up going. I won't mention the name of the band that you're giving homage to because you never know what YouTube will do with it. Right? But I get the I get the reference. It's fantastic.   What what would you say? And I I don't wanna ask you, are you, to speak on behalf of of St. Jude who,   I will also make sure to to link to, but   either sort of in your conversations with her or in your own   discovery early on,   what were the characteristics as you remember them   of that ideal   alternative   currency,   and how close it, if at all, have we gotten, do you think, with with Bitcoin?  

If you have a if you have a perspective on that.  

[00:31:56] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think I think it was an anarchist   vision, whether you're left anarchist or right anarchist. You   fight that out once you've made the,   made made governing very   difficult,   having a   dominant currency very difficult and so So,   I mean, the vision was in some ways pretty simple.   It was   out of control,   making currency   out of control.   I don't think there's   much to say   beyond that. I mean, there was a crypto anarchist   manifesto   by Tim May that   Sure.   Laid down the idea that,   it would cut down the,   fences   between   exchange,   the, you know, between   the you know?  

And, I mean, he admitted that, it would make possible,   you know, difficult and dangerous underground   exchanges, you know, hiring hitmen and and   stuff like that.   And I think the idea was that stuff goes on anyway, but that it could be broadly   liberating.   So I think that's what the what the vision was at the at the time. I   I can't really   credit   much complexity   to the idea.   I mean, I did it you know, clearly,   cryptocurrency   did not   turn out to be a completely private   means of exchange.   It turned out to be discoverable,   and to a degree   controllable   by   states and   tax people   and,   people who   might not like dissidents of various sorts and,   all that nation states. I mean, it just didn't   happen the way the original,   you know, crypto anarchists   imagined,   which, I mean,   kinda seems like the story of everything.  



[00:34:17] Shawn Yeager:

And It is definitely an experiment still underway.   Yeah. Absolutely.   Yeah.   What is your take zooming out? Are you on   the ability for,   for individuals to harness these technologies for good? And I'll just pick AI as an example.   You know, do you think it is   destined to to end up in corporate control, or do you see glimmers of of lighter hope for for individuals to harness it to take back more power, to take back more   independence?  

[00:34:47] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I,   write for MindPlex   dot ai, which is, run by Ben Ben Gertzel,   who,   is   working   on   AI and AGI.   And,   his project along with SingularityNET   is beneficial   AI with a very   clear focus   on,   making sure   that it's   a beneficial   project, not a top down   ownership   project.  

[00:35:23] Shawn Yeager:

And what would define that in your view? And I don't assume that they're hard and fast rules, but what separates Beneficial   AI, say, from   what companies like OpenAI and others are doing?  

[00:35:35] Unknown:

You know, I'm not I'm not that sure. I mean, that's that's kind   of that's kind of work for,   Ben and and people like that to,   to work with.   You know, I I am told by my friend Dan Kottke that the   OpenAI   guy,   has reasonably good intentions,   maybe compared to   Meta and,   GROC.   So there are   levels   of,   of,   good and evil,   potentially going there. At play there.   Yeah.   I mean,   I think for for people to   have their own   system to,   to be able to have something that they manage themselves   that, nobody,   from an outside   company can interfere with and prevent them from   using in the way that they   wish to use it, which brings us back in some ways to the cyber cypherpunk,   sort of sort of anarchic   view.  

But then, you know, then there's the question of mitigating against   somebody   using all that power in a in a destructive way. So so, I mean, there's a lot   of complexity,   also   there.   You know, I think,   you know, in terms of AGI,   you know, if if people are going to be taking these things under the skin, are they gonna be taking these things   inside of themselves?   They don't wanna have, you   know,   Apple setting   limits on   what they can   think and, you know,   physically towards purchasing   things.  

[00:37:40] Shawn Yeager:

You know? There is. I I don't know where you that. If you,   have followed Black Mirror, the Oh, yeah. Writings and now the show Yeah. Yeah. The current season, I have to I have to confess I tapped out. It is   darker than I'm prepared to watch at this point, but without giving away too many spoilers. So if you're if you're starting the thirtieth season spoiler alert,   they deal with or they tackle the issue   of a brain implant   that turns into a subscription service.   And   that that  

[00:38:14] Unknown:

And the couple keeps going back to their   doctor, and they keep on it was a perfect unshitification   model where they just keep getting charged more   money to upgrade.   And then if you didn't upgrade,   what would really happen to you wasn't just that there was a nice level above you, but at your your level would be really being downgraded.   Very much a kind   of, model of,   discourse.   It's a it's a great season. I mean, you know, if you're if you're if you're ready to,  

[00:38:48] Shawn Yeager:

take in take in really dark terrain. Emotional well is deep enough that you feel you can Yeah. Yeah. You know, I and I are still trying to get through it.   Yeah. Yeah. No. I enjoyed it thoroughly. And I think, you know, but I mean, I think to to to to the point,   it is,   it is a cautionary tale. And and Yeah. Perhaps perhaps, and I'm suddenly forgetting the the writer's name, he takes it to an extreme but for purpose.   If we shift then, you know, I think to what   is the bulk of of your work in your career are you I mean, you foresaw   the Internet's potential ahead of many,   and you've spent your career in the creative,   arts, generally speaking. I mean,   let's go there for a minute. And I know   from my own experience in the entertainment industry and from friends and colleagues who are building   businesses in this area, you know, there's a lot of hope, a lot of potential with regard to   what,   emerging technologies can do to empower artists, writers, creators   to sort of reclaim   their work.  

I'd love to get your take on where you see   the wind blowing with regard   to the Internet today   and and what artists, writers, creators can do to   to get back some control   and to, have a little more agency. Well, it's a  

[00:40:10] Unknown:

it's a good question. That's for sure.   I mean, you you can you can try to stay off. If you're doing music, you can try to stay off Spotify, and,   Bandcamp is a pretty good app   still so far. Develop new develop your own develop your own app. Put your   put your work on a discreet   app.   You know? I mean, it used to be a website,   and, you know, that's a cool thing too. But, I mean, I think maybe the thing to do is is to put your stuff on a discreet   app and to maybe put it on   a a physical   product that,   people can get a hold of, you know, back to,   back to physical   things.  



[00:41:03] Shawn Yeager:

And, you know, it got many in excuse me. Are you are you seeing many in your circles,   do that? I know you're on the West Coast, and you hang out with a lot of super interesting people,   making   art.   What what what are you sort of picking up in terms of of those that are maybe early in their career or   or perhaps have the freedom to not care and can kind of do whatever they want? Yeah. I mean, there's two extremes. I think I think there's a a desire for,  

[00:41:31] Unknown:

a live,   gathering   again,   for, stuff that you can bring   to, you know, the the   post digital potlatch.   Yeah. I mean, you you organize   something wonderful like a dork bot in San Francisco. You organize it digitally,   but then the people What is that? Could you could you tell me more about that? Kind of a gathering,   that,   happens in San Francisco,   maybe about once a month or even less that,   tend to bring the old cyber tribes   together,   and, people come and make, presentations.   And,   it's certainly organized online,   but the final result is   people,   getting together in physical space. I think the,   the combination   of using digital space and using physical space,   using digital product and using physical product and how you can integrate those things,   That's kind of an up and coming thing. But, also,   my feeling   from a creative perspective,   and I know many people who don't feel this way,   is, you know, use   use AI.  

You know,   use the Ella large language models and, you know, the the   music   generating apps and the visual generating apps and   make them your own. Do something   interesting   with them.   And,   I wrote a piece for MindPlex   quite a while back,   when,   a lot of the controversy about,   AI use   in   the visual   and,   musical   and textual   creative arts,   were being discussed.   And I did contextualize   it within,   what was one of Mondo two thousand's   favorite things,   which was fair use and appropriation.   And   there's a whole discussion   about,   whether,   these very big profit   driven companies,   how we relate to,   their use   of fair use and appropriation,   and then our use of what they're doing,   for our own use. And   what I wanted to do was   to, put   not a position of advocacy, but a position   of,   looking at the   wild complexity   of the whole thing.  

And, it's actually a two part series. One of,   it was going on during the writers' strike. So there was that also   going on. The writers wanted to,   make sure that the large language   models were not taking away   their jobs,   which maybe they were in our, and maybe they aren't.   But,   I wanted to, delve into the complications  

[00:45:08] Shawn Yeager:

around that. Now I'll send you links to those articles that you Terrific. That you can share. Yeah. I think, I mean, you raised to me, I was I'm reminded of Laurie Anderson, you know, the avant garde artist who I think when,   streaming   the streaming debate ignited   in Right. You know, the early two thousands, mid two thousands perhaps,   that I'm reminded that, you know, she,   if I recall correctly, was talking about sort of using some of these new tools as part of her art. And so what I hear you saying is that,   you know, to as opposed to being, as I understand, some are,   offended and afraid of   AI and other tools, but you're saying embrace it and turn them into instruments or or tools of art.  



[00:45:53] Unknown:

Absolutely. I mean, if if Mazda 2,000 had one message, it was be like Laurie Anderson. But,   I mean Outstanding if I if well, I missed that, and so I'm glad that That's a high point of, creative brilliance right there. Indeed. Yeah. Indeed.   Yeah. I I jest up to a point, but,   yes.   You know, use the   tools as creatively   as,   as as possible to make the the kind of statements that, you want to you want to make.  

[00:46:28] Shawn Yeager:

So any other takes are you on   empowerment, you know, user empowerment? And I I I think back as best I could and I looked up some archives, you know, I was reminded of some of my favorite articles that you wrote, in Mondo and Beyond   and just that unbridled   sense of possibility.   Right.   What if anything, you know, where did you find that today? You you know, we've talked about AI, LMS. I mean, are there other areas,   you know, be it VR, AR,   you know, what gives you or ignites that that same sense perhaps that that many of us had in   the eighties and nineties?  



[00:47:07] Unknown:

I mean, I remember the   Mondo   editorial or it might have been the reality hackers' editorial that, hackers is the new Prometheus.   You know, that,   you take the tools from the power pole   and,   from the gods and, you,   use them for,   liberation   of the people or just for your for your for your own personal   use. I mean,   I mean, certainly,   you know,   access   to,   potential intelligence increase.   Chemicals and nutrients   seem to be a   field that people are becoming once again more interested in. Biohacking.   Yeah.   The, the,   liberation   that seems to be occurring within society   of,   availability   of,   psychedelics   as cause cognitive enhancers.  

The, system is being very cautious about   LSD, which, is a at a microdose level is an excellent   cognitive enhancer, but there's, you know, psilocybin.   There there are other   routes to, cognitive enhancement.   So there's   there's that. So on an individual   level, you know, you can you can find   enhancers.   You know, I mean, you can get onto the dark net, but you can also just find things that are   that are completely legit and are completely out there. You have to protect yourself against scams and rip offs,   when you're pursuing   enhancement   kind of things.  

But,   there's a lot of stuff out there,   for,   the individual   and for groups.   I think that,   Timothy Leary at the end of his life,   emphasized   teamwork,   the idea of getting together in small teams,   and you protect your team against   outside   rip offs and, you know, scams and,   sleaze, but,   but that you do your work   with people.   So it's not just a liberation   of the individual,   but it's the,   formation   of,   small groups, little tribes.   Man,   he did this during his process of dying,   to have a group   around you and to work   as a team around,   his needs and around, what can be   broadcast   out into the world by having   by having a team.  

And,   that's another kind of self enhancement   is the potential for,   people taking a friendship more   seriously.   Very poignant today. Yeah. And as,   the trolling world gets more difficult,   meaning   leaning into friendship,   can be a a good thing to,   start doing.  

[00:50:47] Shawn Yeager:

And a great reminder as many of us, myself included, spend too much time staring at screens and not enough time touching grass and and hugging friends. Yeah. All that stuff. Yeah. So I'd love to wrap up here. Are you what, what should we look for next from you? I know you mentioned recently you had an event,   on the Best Coast.   And,   anything anything else that we should be looking out for? New album?  

[00:51:10] Unknown:

I mean, yeah, the event might be over by the by the time people see this. But if it's not, it's at Gray Area in San Francisco   on June 7. It's   titled, come to the Gulf of Deliria at Gray Area.   And,   among our guests are Mark Pauline from Survival   Research Labs,   the guy who, did the   wild fire breathing,   robots out on the streets of San Francisco and all that kind of stuff.   I don't think he can do that anymore, but, I think he'll probably do Something about permits, maybe? Yeah. We were gonna try to get, he has an indoor machine, but, apparently, it's not gonna fit through the door. So   that's not gonna happen. We're gonna have Rudy Rucker,   the cyberpunk science fiction writer there,   and a lot of   riders.  

But the music will still be out there.   The Smarter Kings of Deliria by Are You Serious and Friends.   That's p h r I e n d z. Yes.   I'll be, continuing to, write columns from mindplex.ai.   So,   that stuff will be out there. I'm doing   a, book about the history of Mondo 2000   with,   Shera Chess,   who is a   a, teacher,   a professor   in   media   and culture   studies at the University of Georgia.   So a combination   of my wild takes   with her more grounded,   academic   and,   you know, fact based   materials.   So that will be available next year.   Fantastic. We are doing them that   for Strange Attractor Press. Great day. And they're a subsidiary   of   MIT   Press, so that should be all   widely   available.  

So that's a big, big project that we're doing right now.   So people should,   look out for that.  

[00:53:30] Shawn Yeager:

I'm excited for it. I will keep my eyes peeled and keep the, or rather have all those links in included in the show notes. Ari, it's been a pleasure. Real pleasure. I appreciate you taking the time and, getting a shake. On. Yeah. I should've worn my dentures, but,  

[00:53:44] Unknown:

I'm not I'm not ashamed. You know? You're great. You're a great man. Thanks so much. I look thinner without them. So  

[00:53:51] Shawn Yeager:

Yeah. Maybe I look thinner I look thinner without hair. That'll be my honor. That's it. Alright.   Thanks so much, Ari. Take care. You as well. Bye bye.